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Camile
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Location: Co. Galway - Ireland
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Rob R
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
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moonwind
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140
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 Posted: Mon Dec 18, 06 11:40 pm Post subject: |
 
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One lands best hay might be totally different to another surely?
The hay we used to crop in Northamptonshire was great and the sheep did not need much supplement at all, in fact only mineral buckets, however the LFA where we are now does not maintain good condition so we have always given some coarse ration to ewes carrying twins and toward the end of their pregancy.
When we were fit and had more sheep we used to use to give them chopped sweded and carrots etc., chopped in the old fashioned mangle grinder, couldn't swing the handle these days, they loved that with a little shredded beet, again when we were in Northamptonshire we didn't need to supplement.
With the greatest respect Rob, I do not trust a lot of research programmes on animal health.
We have had links with SAC for years and there have been some really good, knowledgable people associated with them but the wider picture? That baffles me still!
I am fascinated by genetics and diseases and other weaknesses that can be proven (locally) to come from a given "line", but the NSP is as useless as tits on a boarhog imho and you may shoot me down if you wish!! but you won't change my mind, there was far too little research done on encepholopathies in MANY species whose lives interlink and who, therefore, COULD be responsible for contaminating or infecting (I don't know there has not been the Science doen on it!) other species.
There was some conspiracy theories that scrapie being spoken of as BSE and BSE itself which suddenly and rather magically became nvCJD was going to be used to get rid of the UK sheep flock.
Now time has passed since then, it was after all peaking just before the "gift" of FMD (which had/has it own sets of conspiracy theories), stock reduction schemes etc.
We were twice part of the blup figure schemes and came out of that because we have never seen it make any difference to the markets or the animals (far more important to us!!)
Livestock improvement is great whether that is improving your own chosen breed or not, and that is something that can be assisted by science but not cured by science alone.
A well know Charolais and Lleyn Breeder says "A scientist is not a Farmer and a Farmer is not a Scientist ..trouble is the two cannot work together!"
So forgive my lack of faith in some of the academic systems and health schemes that abound. I appreciate they bring jobs and teach students but have not been particularly impressed with the flocks I have knowledge of that belong to funded research schemes.
We have always cared very deeply for health matters and there is very little known about sheep illness and diseases and genetic weakness because a sheeps life is cheap (I always say NOT for the sheep it isn't!) but there you go economically it is true.
I am disillusioned by what is happening in the sheep world in general, where the big are getting bigger and I can foresee a time and not too long into the future, where there are groups of big sheep breeders and any smaller ones will niche or die out, I do not think that is good for the sheep or the natural progression of livestock improvement, which is done by breeding only the best you have on whatever merits you are trying to improve naturally, which takes time of course.
I do not like the over use of embryo transplants, it is a painful procedure and if people cared about their animals they wouldn't do it (again that is just MY opinion, not saying I am right or wrong just being honest), I know you don't do that you are a natural producer.
Caseous Lymphoma next on the list isn't it?
The leaflets have been in circulation for years now, started with a few now I see the words coming more and more to the fore, soon will be a requirment to test, I believe they are testing at slaughter now aren't they?
I suppose I just wish they would start ONE programme and see it through to the actual benefit of the animals concerned, but as said I have become a sceptic .. or OH says miserable bitch but hey what is us womyn for
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Rob R
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 06 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I have only one thing to say- science is not objective.
Or the long-winded version...
True understanding is realising how little we know, and how we will continue to only ever scratch the surface (particularly as long as intervet are behind half of it). Experience is better than teaching. But having said that, I'd still recommend David Henderson's book.
The main trouble with the livestock industry as a whole is that it has gone so far down one route, that it fails to see an alternative for fear of admitting it was wrong. So much of the animals natural ability to survive & thrive has been lost through a combination of 'props' which increase production, but also prevent the animal from displaying its natural abilities (or lack of), and the breeding for production above all else.
We actually found a very basic farm grown/milled ration outperformed the commercially formulated concentrate in an intensive early lambing flock. I couldn't prove it scientifically, but I suspect that the lack of processing & proximity of growth to the animals had much to do with it.
It must be human nature, or something, but science & industry alike seem to concentrate only on the single or few factors that they can easily understand & control in order to raise production, and ignoring the profound symbiosis of nature, because we can't catalogue it.  |
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moonwind
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 06 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Rob R wrote: |
I have only one thing to say- science is not objective.
Or the long-winded version...
True understanding is realising how little we know, and how we will continue to only ever scratch the surface (particularly as long as intervet are behind half of it). Experience is better than teaching. But having said that, I'd still recommend David Henderson's book.
The main trouble with the livestock industry as a whole is that it has gone so far down one route, that it fails to see an alternative for fear of admitting it was wrong. So much of the animals natural ability to survive & thrive has been lost through a combination of 'props' which increase production, but also prevent the animal from displaying its natural abilities (or lack of), and the breeding for production above all else.
We actually found a very basic farm grown/milled ration outperformed the commercially formulated concentrate in an intensive early lambing flock. I couldn't prove it scientifically, but I suspect that the lack of processing & proximity of growth to the animals had much to do with it.
It must be human nature, or something, but science & industry alike seem to concentrate only on the single or few factors that they can easily understand & control in order to raise production, and ignoring the profound symbiosis of nature, because we can't catalogue it. |
I agree.
Regard this .."The main trouble with the livestock industry as a whole is that it has gone so far down one route, that it fails to see an alternative for fear of admitting it was wrong."
I think more than admitting they are wrong could be that the "big boys" are concerned they could lose out financially maybe some wouldn't know right or wrong (in conscience terms) if it got up and smacked them in the eye.
I do not think our views are that far apart and I totally agree about watching, trying and learning through the actual process of doing.
Weaknesses on a breed can be bred out as most breeds of anything will have good and bad points, look at some of the commercial mules bred.
One very interesting thing about mules is how their genetic makeup is different in different parts of the Country to give the ewe that is hardy to the environment (local) low maintenance (veterinary) and prolific in milk and ability as a Mother.
These ewes mainly bred up by shepherds knowledge and, I daresay, trials and errors over the years.
Nice discussion, thanks.
Hope lambing goes well for you and everyone else who has sheepies due soon.
Quality on your plates come from good farm gates.  |
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Camile
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Location: Co. Galway - Ireland
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