One mans way of making Chorizo

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One mans way of making Chorizo
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dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 2:48 pm Post subject:

bodger wrote:

...
"To advise anyone (even Bodger) to go without either culture or nitrate/nitrite is quite a bit worse than naughty. "

Dougall, I hold you in similar high esteem, but on a more serious note, I need to find out about this for certain.

If you won't accept it from me, then look at what Cab had to say about the importance of using an appropriate culture particularly if you are not using nitrate/nitrite - and remember that he's the one who plays at microbiology for a living...

cab wrote:

dougal wrote:

Holland & Barrett have a deal right now, 100 capsules of 'Acidophilus in Pectin' for £3 something.

Because of the absence of nitrite/nitrate, acidifying the stuff is important...

It would be a pain doing acidophilus for sausages from capsules, but I should think it would work.

And yes, if you're doing curing without nitrate then you should really make sure you put the bugs in.

https://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=476034#476034

Please, people - use acidifying culture, or nitrate/nitrite, or (belt and braces) both.
To deliberately use neither for any form of air-cured "salami" to be eaten raw really is just another form of russian roulette.
Will we get away with it this time?

Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 3:59 pm Post subject:
Your advice is valued but to be honest the way that you've put it is not. I put a deal of effort into making the chorizo and followed the instructions on the DVD to the letter. I'm now in touch with the RC chefs .

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 5:33 pm Post subject:

dougal wrote:

The usual food safety advice (belt AND braces) is to use a culture that will acidify the sausage AND to use nitrate (nitrAte for long term {"Ages"} rather than nitrIte for Immediate).

Although really the use of nitrate will probably prevent the lactobacillus growing, so one or the other will do. But you do need one or the other.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 5:39 pm Post subject:

bodger wrote:

Your advice is valued but to be honest the way that you've put it is not. I put a deal of effort into making the chorizo and followed the instructions on the DVD to the letter. I'm now in touch with the RC chefs .

They look tasty, but in my opinion Dougal is right. You'll possibly get away with it if the right fungi get inoculate the sausages really early on (which is how come people who have been doing it for years mostly get away with it, they've been hanging sausages in the same shed for generations and those places are packed full of spores from the right fungi). But its important to use one of the two preservation methods because otherwise things can go a bit wrong!

Remember, botulism comes from the word for sausage.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 5:54 pm Post subject:

I'm sorry to be blunt.
But it is very important.

There does exist a risk of fatal poisoning (not just a tummy upset) from using neither acidification nor nitrate/nitrite when making dried sausage for eating raw.
This is distinct from bacon, ham, etc. - do what you like there.
I am being utterly specific about dried sausage, potentially to be eaten without cooking.
Whatever the odds, with that type of product there is a risk of death, and its really easily avoidable FFS.

Bodger, I'm truly sorry that you were misguided by HFW.
But I think you were.
Like Franco ("the sausage maker" on RC, the owner of sausagemaking.org), as I quoted upthread, I believe that it is wrong of HFW to encourage people to do stuff in a potentially lethally risky way, and especially wrong to fail to even mention that such a risk exists.
However, that particular belief is only a matter of personal ethical opinion.
But its an opinion that I would hope was widely shared.

As I explained above, I think your effort and meat need *not* go entirely to waste. It could be chilled until you get some curing salt, mix it in and restuff. But, if you don't have the Cure No 2 on hand, the sooner the meat is chilled, the better.
From where you are now, I think curing salt is a better option than culture. That's IMHO, but the nitrIte in No 2 should act a lot faster than waiting for a culture to make acid, so there's some reason for that opinion.
Add to the Cure No 2 advice above -- 1.2g No 2 per kg of meat means you want about 4g of No 2 for your 3.5kg of meat and fat. It'll mix in better if its first dissolved in something, say 10/15ml of water or red wine.
That is all it should take to completely avoid the main risk of fatality.

Another way the situation could be saved would be to just freeze them, for use as cooking sausages. But the longer they are hanging around unrefrigerated, the more reluctant I'd be to use them.

And on an entirely different point - it looks as though your chosen place to hang the things is well provided with *daylight*...
Fat goes rancid much more easily with light.
Hence the standard advice is to hang drying sausages in a *dark* place ...

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 6:49 pm Post subject:
Am I right in thinking that nitrates get converted to nitrites by microorgannisms hence the reason its a slower process to use nitrates? (not a bio chemist as you may well see)

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 7:25 pm Post subject:

vegplot wrote:

Am I right in thinking that nitrates get converted to nitrites by microorgannisms hence the reason its a slower process to use nitrates? (not a bio chemist as you may well see)

Yep.
Think of nitrate as delayed release nitrite. And that step specifically needs bacterial action. (Which is why saltpetre curing of bacon and ham is commercially 'unreliable' - it depends on the right bacteria!)

Cure No 2 has nitrite ready for immediate activity, and nitrate for longer term protection.

And I'm no biochemist either!

You might be interested to sift useful info from the megaposts on this RC thread.
https://forum.rivercottage.net/about12943.html
Beware that most of the discussion is about colouring rather than the specifics of the anti-bacterial action.
Nitrate (as nitrite) is phenominally effective (even in trace quantities) against C Botulinum. Whereas one link I put in that thread refers to 7% salt not killing the stuff.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 7:28 pm Post subject:
Thanks dougal, most informative.

toggle

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 7:36 pm Post subject:

dougal wrote:

vegplot wrote:

Am I right in thinking that nitrates get converted to nitrites by microorgannisms hence the reason its a slower process to use nitrates? (not a bio chemist as you may well see)

now that is interesting.

I didn't think of making bacon as relying on bacterial action. Actually, didn't bother to learn any more about the process than was required to make it, and answer small boy's questions about it.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 9:46 pm Post subject:

vegplot wrote:

Am I right in thinking that nitrates get converted to nitrites by microorgannisms hence the reason its a slower process to use nitrates? (not a bio chemist as you may well see)

Yes, and in my opinion thats why nitrates are a better curing agent. You get a more generally curing environment with the slower process, and a better flavour. But I much prefer lactobacillus/mold curing.

sonnenkind

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Isle Of Wight

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 9:47 pm Post subject:

Dougal
I use Saltpetre in all the cures I use for bacon and ham, I obtain it from the pharmacie here in France, he has never suggested that it would not be alright to use but now from reading your post's I have to say that I am concerned. I am obvously not very clever because I can't work out if I should be buying Sodium Nitrate (saltpetre) or Sodium Nitrite (don't know if there is a common name) If you could give me a diffinative answer on what is the safest product to use and in what quantity, I would be very grateful.
I would be really fed up if I killed myself by mistake!

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 9:48 pm Post subject:

toggle wrote:

Thats the thing about bacteriology. A lot of 'doing it' is really simple, whereas understanding or explaining it can be really rather involved. Theres a lot of intuition in doing it, a lot of complex knowledge in getting to grips with whats happening.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 9:50 pm Post subject:

sonnenkind wrote:

There is nothign wrong with using sodium nitrate. Done properly its just fine. There is a trend towards using nitrite, which you CAN do, but its a faster cure, and there is rather less margin for error in getting a good finished product with it. You're doing okay with your saltpetre, as long as you get the concentrations of both that and the salt correct.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 08 11:16 pm Post subject:

sonnenkind wrote:

You shouldn't be concerned.
In this thread I have suggested that air curing raw sausages without either an acidifying culture or nitrate/nitrite carries some risk of serious danger.

These days bacon and ham are really cured principally for taste, rather than preservation.
There is massively less risk of poisoning with bacon and ham than with minced and then enclosed products like salami for eating raw.

Quote:

I am obvously not very clever because I can't work out if I should be buying Sodium Nitrate (saltpetre) or Sodium Nitrite (don't know if there is a common name) If you could give me a diffinative answer on what is the safest product to use and in what quantity, I would be very grateful.
I would be really fed up if I killed myself by mistake!

Both Nitrate and Nitrite are safe for curing ham.
The US authorities don't like the idea of using Nitrate for bacon - because of things that could be produced if it were overcooked. So they insist on Nitrite for commercial bacon, and some Vitamin C as well - to make sure that there's no Nitrite left as Nitrite when its cooked. But the European authorities don't believe this is a problem, and *do* permit NitrAte in bacon.
Some people claim to not just tell the difference, but actually to prefer NitrAte curing - which I suspect is the taste from the residual Nitrate.

Add that to the fact that Nitrate curing requires some specific (and pretty common) bacteria to 'kick off' the cure, and you'll find that most commercial cures (including artisan commercial curing) use mainly Nitrite, but often with a little Nitrate. This is actually a blend "needed" for salami, but it can be used for ham or bacon (as long as you aren't exporting to the USA).
I started by making bacon with saltpetre, because I thought it seemed more natural. Learning that some bacteria were helpful (and the saltpetre was going to deal with the others), I actually learned to bring the pork belly up to room temperature for an hour or so before starting the cure - to get *some* bacterial activity going! (I suggested to Jema that *lack* of bacteria might explain his lack of success with Nitrate-curing bacon.)

Nowadays, I rather think that NitrIte curing is probably the more sensible route.
Using saltpetre requires accurate measurement of small quantities. Often rather less than 1g per kilo of pork. Its difficult for most people to do accurately.
But although the Nitrite quantity is even smaller, it is only sold diluted with salt, making accurate measurement more possible for more people. In many parts of Europe it is sold as "curing salt" with just 0.6% Nitrite. You shouldn't be able to harm yourself with that stuff. The ordinary salt would get you first!
Cures No 1 and No 2 have 6.25% Nitrite (No 2 has Nitrate as well).

For the long curing (weeks, even months) for air cured products, the very slow (and long lasting) action of Nitrate is important. NitrIte alone is not enough for Salami on its own. But it can still have a part to play.

The quantity to use depends on the quantity of meat, the type of curing (dry, brine, etc) and even the size of the container (ie the amount of brine).
The best advice I can give is to compare (modern) recipes for the same thing using the same method. And go with the consensus for a proportion (by weight) of cure.
Either that or learn about calculating the commercial legal requirements (which aren't entirely logical...

)

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 6:59 am Post subject:
Anyone confused? Seriously, good advice guys. Goes to prove that we shouldn't believe everything we read...............oh.

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