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Ty Gwyn
Joined: 22 Sep 2010 Posts: 4563 Location: Lampeter
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Mutton
Joined: 09 May 2009 Posts: 1508
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Posted: Sat Jan 18, 14 9:31 am Post subject: |
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@Nick - OK, we're cool.
Hairyloon wrote: |
Mutton wrote: |
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3. Tidal power as harvested in an estuary - Severn estuary has been comprehensively investigated and the environmental impacts are bad enough that everyone has currently given up on the idea. |
Why do they seem to only ever look at doing these things on a monster scale which will obviously cause monster problems?
What is wrong with lots of small projects instead?
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But - renewable energy is NOT infinite. If you take enough energy out of the wind or the tidal stream, then you change the climate. |
Wind energy is effectively infinite as it is driven by the sun.
The tide is driven by the kinetic energy stored in the orbital velocity of the moon... use enough of that and the moon's orbit will slow down, but I think we'd have to use a heck of a lot of it. |
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Agreed on large projects - I am deeply fed-up with the whole bigger is better attitude. As well as a lot more reduction of usage, to me it would be better to have small, localised generators for further reducing domestic call on the national grid. Industrial use is all set up to need the heavy duty three phase generation and to have it continuously and reliably - so other than some big hydropower would still need power stations.
I agree that the sun is effectively infinite on a human scale. I agree that the sun drives the wind. But because the planet is finite, so is wind. You do not get something for nothing. Each wind turbine turned by the wind takes some kinetic energy out of the wind flow. There was a theoretical study done a few years ago in Germany, reported in New Scientist, which showed that too many turbines would cause climate change by slowing the wind flow round the planet.
As I mentioned earlier, warming downwind of individual turbines, and whole wind farms has already been measured. The devil is in the detail - while renewable looks infinite, it is not.
Another useful for a while renewable is hot rocks - there is, or was, a test plant at Redruth - and work is getting going again. Eden Project is doing, or looking into it at their place (lost track of where they've reached). But from memory, after about 25 years, the rocks have cooled to the point where they no longer heat the water sufficiently for it to make steam to drive the turbines. Not sure if the rock then re-heats eventually and you can come back to the existing bore hole, or whether you have to keep drilling new ones.
Thorium reactors - they were an alternative to uranium based nuclear power but were not progressed, as they do not produce weapons grade nuclear material as well as energy. There is now development under way - far less radioactive waste. Can also be built small so rather than a national grid, you could have a transit van sized generator for each city.
And research is still ongoing onto nuclear fusion reactors but any working reactors are still a long way off.
But above all, we must live within our means on this planet - nothing except the sun is infinite - coal, nuclear material, wood, land space to build solar panels and the materials from which to manufacture them - all finite. |
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Hairyloon
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 Posts: 15425 Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
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Mutton
Joined: 09 May 2009 Posts: 1508
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Hairyloon
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 Posts: 15425 Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
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Posted: Sat Jan 18, 14 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Mutton wrote: |
Hairyloon wrote: |
Why not move some of the energy hungry industry out to offshore energy farms?
Then you avoid the problem of getting the energy back on shore, so there is no limit to how far offshore they can be built. |
Because of the costs of taking the raw materials out there and bringing the finished product back - including the energy costs. |
Woodchip is not a high value commodity, yet I understand we are shipping it right across the Atlantic. Recently I was looking at bulk buying waste oil for fuel, and it seems to be cheaper to ship it over from Thailand than to buy it locally...
So the cost of shipping is not a convincing argument.
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Not to mention the capital and energy cost of building plant from scratch and having all the workforce get there. |
I had assumed they would live aboard rather than commute, and a lot of plant can be dismantled and rebuilt. Much of it is already conveniently near to docks.
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Hairyloon wrote: |
Mutton wrote: |
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As I mentioned earlier, warming downwind of individual turbines, and whole wind farms has already been measured. |
Have you got a link to this research?...
I suspect it is twaddle put about by the anti wind brigade. |
Try googling on the search terms. (Sorry in a rush and not got time to go and look for the original sites I read.) |
I am happy to take it on faith that I am right.
If you want to persuade me otherwise, then, at your convenience, please dig out the links. |
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Mistress Rose
Joined: 21 Jul 2011 Posts: 15600
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Hairyloon
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 Posts: 15425 Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
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Mistress Rose
Joined: 21 Jul 2011 Posts: 15600
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Mutton
Joined: 09 May 2009 Posts: 1508
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Hairyloon
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 Posts: 15425 Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
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Mutton
Joined: 09 May 2009 Posts: 1508
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Hairyloon
Joined: 20 Nov 2008 Posts: 15425 Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 34535 Location: Hereford
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crofter
Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 2252
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 34535 Location: Hereford
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