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Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15539

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 23 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

We are within 60 miles of London, so some people travel there to work, frequently driving to the station. The other problem is that people that work in the town can afford to live in the country; perhaps a 10-15 mile journey each way. The people that work in the country cannot afford to live there, so live in town and commute the other way. Our son has about a 15 mile trip each way, but that is because where they live is a compromise between his wifes work place and his and they are somewhere suitable for her, being disabled. We have about a 2 mile commute to work. I walk it sometimes in summer, but carrying any tools, product etc. does require a truck as the last half mile is along woodland tracks.

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9702
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 23 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

So I've been thinking, since I can only afford second hand cars, that I will have to wait until the second hand EV market is affordable to me..

But a relative recently bought a second hand EV and finds the battery is tired... they can only get 30 miles out of a charge. Is this going to be an issue with second hand EVs coming down - need new batteries?

sgt.colon



Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 7380
Location: Just south of north.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 23 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:
sgt.colon wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
If you want fewer cars on the road, improve public transport.


Well if I remember rightly, Labour increased taxes on petrol and diesel back in the 00's to improve public transport. Another fail maybe?


I think, after 12 years of Tory rule, you can't blame much on the opposition


My opinion is is that they are all as bad as each other and none of them really work for the good of the people but it is what it is.

They all leave me feeling rather jaded about it all.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 23 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

gz wrote:
sgt.colon wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
If you want fewer cars on the road, improve public transport.


Well if I remember rightly, Labour increased taxes on petrol and diesel back in the 00's to improve public transport. Another fail maybe?

When Lab got in in Sheffield council. Years ago...they halved public transport fares...and usage more than doubled, so that they had to put more routes and buses on. The Cons got back in....reversed the fares change...and usage went down, of course...then they got privatised...and the rest is history


GLC Fair Fares early 1980's 10 any journey, more than doubled PT use
so thatcher abolished the GLC (dennis's cronies were road fans but that is another story )

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 23 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

insightful research

the evidence of the consequences of ice use in personal transport vehicles are very clear
blunt force trauma, acute and chronic toxicity and the catalyst for the 6th extinction are all less than ideal but are embraced as "my journey must be in a poison cart ....." i would add "..... and although i am statistically unsafe to control a complex dynamic machine in a shared environment. it will poison me, my family and multiple strangers and it will change the planet in very bad ways..... because I'm worth it"

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28098
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 23 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Driving a gas car has been woven into peoples literal identity in many places.
MEN drive real polluting cars!

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15539

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 23 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Looking at the answers they gave as specimens I am not surprised they got the answers they did. Cigarette smoke in a room for 8 hours a day is different from car fumes in a street and we have worked for centuries to minimise the risk of work based accidents. I agree too many people do depend on cars, but gone are the days when people were willing to get up at 5 o'clock to walk 10 miles to work, then walk 10 miles back in the evening except under extreme circumstances occasionally.

Yes, too many people for too long have seen a fast or large car as a status symbol or that makes them feel 'bigger', but I am sure before cars they were the same with horses.

As a side issue, my father learnt drive in London during WWII when there were a lot of horses around, and he said they were worse than cars. In a car there is only the unpredictability of the driver, with a horse drawn vehicle there was also the unpredictability of the horse. The manure in bulk is another interesting by-product.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 23 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:
So I've been thinking, since I can only afford second hand cars, that I will have to wait until the second hand EV market is affordable to me..

But a relative recently bought a second hand EV and finds the battery is tired... they can only get 30 miles out of a charge. Is this going to be an issue with second hand EVs coming down - need new batteries?


What car and what age is it? Some cars have a long battery warranty, something like 60% capacity after 6 years but I've not idea how likely they are to pay out.

30 miles sounds rather small, with an old EV I would have thought a claimed 120 mile range would mean 90 mile real life range and you would still expect about 60 mile range after 6 years.

They claim replacement batteries will be affordable but it will still be like buying a 2nd hand petrol car and expecting to replace the engine cost wise.

I would also be concerned about build quality of modern cars, many seem to be build lighter to get better efficiency and to fit more stuff in, quite a few people I know seem to feel new cars that quicker than older cars, especially underneath.

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9702
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 23 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
So I've been thinking, since I can only afford second hand cars, that I will have to wait until the second hand EV market is affordable to me..

But a relative recently bought a second hand EV and finds the battery is tired... they can only get 30 miles out of a charge. Is this going to be an issue with second hand EVs coming down - need new batteries?


What car and what age is it?


I'm afraid I don't know.. I will ask.
I just wondered if it was seen as an accepted expense with EVs - that new batteries would be needed in time.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28098
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
So I've been thinking, since I can only afford second hand cars, that I will have to wait until the second hand EV market is affordable to me..

But a relative recently bought a second hand EV and finds the battery is tired... they can only get 30 miles out of a charge. Is this going to be an issue with second hand EVs coming down - need new batteries?


What car and what age is it?


I'm afraid I don't know.. I will ask.
I just wondered if it was seen as an accepted expense with EVs - that new batteries would be needed in time.


The battery FUD is massively promoted, the reality is different. Batteries look like lasting for 15 or 20 years. There's a touted chemistry that promises a century!
The cost of a battery is mostly about production scale and will also therefore reduce by about 75%.
The bad battery stories are outliers and generally associated with legacy auto makers who didn't bother with temperature control systems or have pretty much been buying their batteries from poundland.
I don't generally go for conspiracy mentality but there is a pattern of ICE makers producing shitty EVs.

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9702
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
Treacodactyl wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
So I've been thinking, since I can only afford second hand cars, that I will have to wait until the second hand EV market is affordable to me..

But a relative recently bought a second hand EV and finds the battery is tired... they can only get 30 miles out of a charge. Is this going to be an issue with second hand EVs coming down - need new batteries?


What car and what age is it?


I'm afraid I don't know.. I will ask.
I just wondered if it was seen as an accepted expense with EVs - that new batteries would be needed in time.


The battery FUD is massively promoted, the reality is different. Batteries look like lasting for 15 or 20 years. There's a touted chemistry that promises a century!
The cost of a battery is mostly about production scale and will also therefore reduce by about 75%.
The bad battery stories are outliers and generally associated with legacy auto makers who didn't bother with temperature control systems or have pretty much been buying their batteries from poundland.
I don't generally go for conspiracy mentality but there is a pattern of ICE makers producing shitty EVs.


So there is a case that the initial EVs that are now appearing as second hand cars are worst examples of EVs? Because this will make me hold my on turning to EV for even longer.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

a second hand, first gen ice spin off vs a new, now gen china model t for less or similar money

no contest

a cheap secondhand but old gen might not be cheap to replace parts and you get a lot less miles per kwh/motor HP(wattage) as they are heavier, have old magnets in the motors and often use ice school friction brakes rather than magnetic-recharging breaking

if globul britun had a smart investor getting into the reasonably priced car import market would be a nice earner if the ones in the video are 2/3 as good as they claim

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
a second hand, first gen ice spin off vs a new, now gen china model t for less or similar money


What are you talking about? If you're referring to BYD they are not available in the UK and the model that they are probably bringing in is 3 times the price with half the range of a similar petrol car.

Can you post up exact details of the cars you're comparing?

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:
So there is a case that the initial EVs that are now appearing as second hand cars are worst examples of EVs? Because this will make me hold my on turning to EV for even longer.


Why do you want an EV? Unless you have a smart meter and a fancy tariff they will not be charged only with renewable energy, arguably mostly with fossil fuel, so they are not greener than a petrol car.

They have their benefits of course but curious why you want one. Hopefully I'll go back to only driving a couple of thousand miles a year and range will no longer be important but then I'd never recoup the extra cost of the EV battery. One would make sense only if I get solar panels so I'm waiting for some models that allow energy to flow in and out of ten battery.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

if globul britun had ......etc

britishvolt, torykipper misrule etc makes domestic unlikely

the fantasy of easy world trade was what it was said to be, fantasy

happen at the mo such manufacturers have a large potential domestic market, with state backing as they are trying to become energy self-sufficient and fossil import light

once that market is saturated or extra capacity developed, exports will be the next loss-leader

their economy has been rather curtailed for a couple of years, that has changed

at the mo there are some reasonable choices from the used market, over priced perhaps, under range perhaps
they may squash me if i let them, but they won't poison me as much

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