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The state of nature
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NorthernMonkeyGirl



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 4584
Location: Peeping over your shoulder
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Thinking of low input / permaculture type farming (and actually farming in general) - it requires a lot more labour on the land, delicate harvesting... so there would be jobs for more people and a healthier food production system

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4562
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

NorthernMonkeyGirl wrote:
Thinking of low input / permaculture type farming (and actually farming in general) - it requires a lot more labour on the land, delicate harvesting... so there would be jobs for more people and a healthier food production system



If the public Were prepared to pay the extra to cover the extra wages for this kind of production.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Ty Gwyn wrote:
NorthernMonkeyGirl wrote:
Thinking of low input / permaculture type farming (and actually farming in general) - it requires a lot more labour on the land, delicate harvesting... so there would be jobs for more people and a healthier food production system



If the public Were prepared to pay the extra to cover the extra wages for this kind of production.


Plenty of people bang on about 'cheap meat', and the effect that has on the planet, but the massive increase we've seen in the consumption of cheap veg goes unmentioned becasue, allegedly, we don't eat enough of it;


Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4562
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Where is the location of that photo?

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45374
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

almeria,spain at an vaguely informed guess

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 15 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
almeria,spain at an vaguely informed guess


yup

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I find it very hard to imagine an ideal world where:

1. Everyone eats enough (but not too much) to maintain their health.
2. The production of all that food is sustainable in the long term – i.e. it protects the soil and doesn’t pollute the environment nor use unsustainable amounts of energy.
3. Everyone has access to/use of reasonable housing, services (health, education, etc) and infrastructure.
4. There is enough land area set aside to sustain a rich biodiversity (fauna/flora) aka Nature.

If such an optimum state were to be achieved it would surely involve curbs on the total human population and their activities (i.e. a person can only have access to/use of a limited amount of resources) – without such constraints the optimum balance could not be maintained.

Can you imagine any of these things being achieved anytime soon? I doubt if a single item could even be agreed upon. And of course you can’t have a partial solution as it needs all the components to be in place to maintain the optimum balance.
In our current ad hoc madness item 4 (‘Nature’) only happens by accident.

If I didn’t suffer from irationable optimism I’d be depressed…

Cathryn



Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19856
Location: Ceredigion
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Is that photo supposed to show a problem? I cannot tell what it is exactly but isn't it some kind of covering to keep the water in and reduce the need?

OtleyLad



Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Cathryn wrote:
Is that photo supposed to show a problem? I cannot tell what it is exactly but isn't it some kind of covering to keep the water in and reduce the need?


Its probably acres and acres of polytunnels.You see these all over spain for growing cut flowers as well as veg.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Cathryn wrote:
Is that photo supposed to show a problem? I cannot tell what it is exactly but isn't it some kind of covering to keep the water in and reduce the need?


Glasshouses, and yes, but then you could say the same for keeping cattle and sheep indoors year round. There are advantages, bit it's not very biodiverse.

There are other issues, too, but it's not PC to criticise veg production at the moment.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

OtleyLad wrote:
I find it very hard to imagine an ideal world where:

1. Everyone eats enough (but not too much) to maintain their health.
2. The production of all that food is sustainable in the long term – i.e. it protects the soil and doesn’t pollute the environment nor use unsustainable amounts of energy.
3. Everyone has access to/use of reasonable housing, services (health, education, etc) and infrastructure.
4. There is enough land area set aside to sustain a rich biodiversity (fauna/flora) aka Nature.

If such an optimum state were to be achieved it would surely involve curbs on the total human population and their activities (i.e. a person can only have access to/use of a limited amount of resources) – without such constraints the optimum balance could not be maintained.

Can you imagine any of these things being achieved anytime soon? I doubt if a single item could even be agreed upon. And of course you can’t have a partial solution as it needs all the components to be in place to maintain the optimum balance.
In our current ad hoc madness item 4 (‘Nature’) only happens by accident.

If I didn’t suffer from irationable optimism I’d be depressed…


I've made it my life's work to achieve that so yes, I share your optimism. But we do have great obstacles to overcome, not least people's attitudes towards food and what we should eat.

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Every population that has ever roamed the earth has expanded to the limits of the environment round it, has fought off other species, and killed off the weak, the spent and the neighbours for the good of the local tribe/flock/herd/collective noun for dinosaurs.

Why would humans be any different?
Why should we?

I don't mean as individuals, that's easy to answer, but as populations.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Indeed, that's how natural selection has worked for millenia. We're not saving the world, we're saving ourselves and what we value, the world we want to live in, which is no less selfish.

Rob R



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

On that bomshell, here's a video of nearby Skipwith Common, to add a little positivity into the state of the world.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 15 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nick wrote:
I don't mean as individuals, that's easy to answer, but as populations.


As populations we can't even resolve the Israel/Palestine situation. Whatever we consider ourselves to be, as a species we're remarkably similar to any other organism; a mindless quest to dominate.

Anyone seen Kingsman?

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