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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43436
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

if you only do a few thousand miles a year, range and charging speed is not usually the main criteria
if the leccy can boil a kettle a slow charger will work, and most day trips would be less than range available even with a second hand second gen used ev

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
with a second hand second gen used ev


Which will be dropping very rapidly in value as new EVs become more plentiful and cheaper

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43436
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

yep but so will prices

a new one at the price of a similar box with an ice would be best, but most folk get "new" used cars

bike analogy
if battery tech for cars was in parallel to battery tech for bikes(pretty close with most ranges), any decent car under 5 yrs old should still have a pretty decent battery even if it has a fairly high mileage

we have not noticed drop off in range or power(ps our ones do work as intended so could be expected to age faster than ones that are dangerously limited)
the first gen ones dropped off quite a bit and were only holding 20% of the energy in the same size and wt as the 5 yr old ones when new

for the same kva range is at least 4 times greater with the newer bikes
the current gen are even better, ditto motor and control tech

caveat
our bikes were good, then we customized them for our styles and needs, now they are better

the "cheap"under £1000 end of the short street journey market has improved, the really posh on or off-road ones are amazing compared to 15 yrs ago
ps no matter how nice the electrics the mechanicals matter

Last edited by dpack on Fri Jan 20, 23 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Treacodactyl
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Tahir wrote:
That's already very far from the truth, you can guarantee that at least 40% of the energy used in running an EV will be from renewables. That's not something you can say about diesel or petrol.


It is the truth. If I buy an EV it is a new demand on the grid, this will be met by gas or possibly coal.

To put it another way, if I don't have an EV that doesn't mean less renewables will be used.

If I had a smart meter and specific tariff I may be able to do some charging overnight that only uses renewables but that's not available here.[/quote]

Treacodactyl
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
if you only do a few thousand miles a year, range and charging speed is not usually the main criteria


It could well be for the millions of people who can't charge at home. Again crystal ball gazing and saying to someone that at some distant point in the future lamp posts will be able to charge your car (whilst ignoring the fact many roads don't even have lamp posts) doesn't help when someone actually looks at buying an EV.

If I couldn't charge one from home my nearest charger is a 30 mile round trip. If more people have EVs I would expect more chargers but will they keep up with demand? In all likelihood it will mean people needing very rapid charging and a good range to prevent long queues.

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9470
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
Tahir wrote:
That's already very far from the truth, you can guarantee that at least 40% of the energy used in running an EV will be from renewables. That's not something you can say about diesel or petrol.


It is the truth. If I buy an EV it is a new demand on the grid, this will be met by gas or possibly coal.

To put it another way, if I don't have an EV that doesn't mean less renewables will be used.

If I had a smart meter and specific tariff I may be able to do some charging overnight that only uses renewables but that's not available here.


I guess it is a matter of whether the UK's development of renewable energy will increase at the same rate as the take up of EVs. The gov estimate that by 2050 15% to 20% of electricity demand will be for transport. I don't think we are developing renewable energy sources fast enough to meet that demand and stay at the 40% mark, nevermind be where we need it to be - a lot nearer 100% mark.


There are plans in place that chargers will only charge when demand is low or more renewables are available - this I guess comes back to the smart meter issue.

So it seems to me, if you want to fight for this cause the issues to be addressed are smart meter issues and a lot more renewable energy. Charging points are probably way down the list of priorities.

worth remembering that 40% of renewable energy is from biomass, and the majority of that is wood pellets, and a good deal of that is imported - so there is diesel involved in its transportation, and greenhouse gases involved in it's burning to convert to electricity. So I would say we not only need more renewable energy, but more of the right kind.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43436
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

leccy present and near future

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky the pace of renewables coming live in the Uk is immense, storage is the missing bit, and that also is happening. As I said above the only thing this government has said that is believable is that we will become a nett exporter of energy and that will be renewables. My nephew has been involved with wind farms all over the world and he knows that the planned increase in capacity is huge and pace of investment is accelerating.

Regardless if we wait for the electricity supply to be 100% renewables before the change to ev then it’ll be far too late to make a meaningful impact on climate change.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43436
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
Nicky the pace of renewables coming live in the Uk is immense, storage is the missing bit, and that also is happening. As I said above the only thing this government has said that is believable is that we will become a nett exporter of energy and that will be renewables. My nephew has been involved with wind farms all over the world and he knows that the planned increase in capacity is huge and pace of investment is accelerating.

Regardless if we wait for the electricity supply to be 100% renewables before the change to ev then it’ll be far too late to make a meaningful impact on climate change.


yep to all of that

there are a few pinch points on the roads to zero carbon energy supply and point of use of leccy, the economics is such that those pinch points will rapidly get widened or bypassed if they need to be

iirc the chap with a lamp oil business was quite keen on a railway to shift it, and then used it to shift his by product, petrol, once ford had made a practical affordable car and leccy replaced paraffin lamps
the profits were very worth the investments and things can happen fast if there is loads of money to be made

perhaps that is a poor example considering how it is turning out

the tech stuff is pretty good now, infrastructure to join it up is in the interest of all, not least those who have a harvest seeking as large and divers a market as possible

not buying into or fooled by fossil protectionism propaganda on behalf of a redundant, dangerous, legacy technology and business model is a start

the future is now or we can play guess how many legs will discover the 6th extinction event

to be too rational, it may not matter if enough forcings and feeds backs are already in place
worth a try if only cos marmots are cute and limpets fascinating, plants are quite nice as well

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27736
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

It still comes down to the basics. Ignore the now and project.

EVs are very cheap.

EVs have more range than ICE if that's what you want.

EVs charge at home.

EVs cost less to run.

EVs cost less to maintain.

EVs have more not less luggage space.

EVs last longer.

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 14637

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Projection is fine as long as you project and act at the right speed. If you have 10 cars per lamp post and no way of plugging your car into your house across a pavement, even with plugs on lamp posts it isn't viable. If your electricity supply isn't up to it, no point.

Renewables are doing very well, and the sooner the government gets the idea the better. One possible advantage to the price of electricity being set by gas prices is that the renewables market has the potential to use the profit they make for investment. Whether they do or not is unfortunately up to individual companies.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43436
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
It still comes down to the basics. Ignore the now and project.

EVs are very cheap.

EVs have more range than ICE if that's what you want.

EVs charge at home.

EVs cost less to run.

EVs cost less to maintain.

EVs have more not less luggage space.



EVs last longer.


ICE fumes are toxic, i can get quite cross about that, they do cause millions of excess deaths a year world wide. probably at least 30000pa just in tiny little blighted

ICE fumes are a major climate catastrophe forcing

ICE energy cannot be harvested at home(usually)

ICE fuel is a major cause of conflict

ICE fuel will run out, probably about the same time the 6th extinction really kicks in

ICE sellers will lie and distract to retain the last dregs of their bowl

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9470
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
It still comes down to the basics. Ignore the now and project.

EVs are very cheap.

EVs have more range than ICE if that's what you want.

EVs charge at home.

EVs cost less to run.

EVs cost less to maintain.

EVs have more not less luggage space.

EVs last longer.


what is your definition of cheap Jema? because I suspect it isn't like mine.

Charging at home ( not available to all, but for those that are lucky) is a definite advantage. I loathe filling up with petrol. I was an early adopter of the battery powered lawnmower and the best thing is not having to go and fetch petrol (yes, yes, before any one says it, we do allow big areas of lawn to be meadow, but we still need some short grass around the drying lines etc)

I feel it might be a bit early to state the case for easier maintenance and how long they last. Certainly with my elderly ICE car, the things that are going wrong on it are not to do with the ICE engine

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27736
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:



what is your definition of cheap Jema? because I suspect it isn't like mine.


EVs will cost far less to produce than ICE cars and so by any reasonable definition they will be cheap.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27736
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 23 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

As for maintenance and how long they will last, they are far far simpler than ICE. So much less to go wrong and by and large more repairable.
There are some exceptions, Tesla's latest structural batteries are an obscenity and show the need for regulation.

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