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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 23 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

citation required

iirc at some time over the last 24hrs a "spokesperson" for the green leccy producers mentioned that they make more than they can shift via the grid and that ratio is rapidly widening

infrastructure is needed, cronies and kleptocrats need not apply

who wants to be minister for energy?

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6533
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 23 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I think most folks don't realize how frequently the big tanks at the gas (petrol) station get filled back up.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

the pathetic bleating soon becomes loud when there is even a couple of days disruption to fuel distribution networks

between such brief moments, ice consumers seem to forget that their drug of choice has to be made and put where they can buy it

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15539

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I have been reading some articles in Chemistry World about electricity storage. Seems that there are several different scenarios that need to be addressed;
1. Short term small to medium capacity such as electric vehicles, phones etc.
2. Short to medium term storage such as to cover shorter term power cuts, say up to 12 hours.
3. Long term storage such as seasonal variation in sunlight and wind.

All three require different types of storage.

For the first, current technology will just about cover it, although there is work being done to reduce the reliance on rarer or less ethically produced metals.

For 2. there are currently various power packs, either if the lithium ion or others that are in at least small scale production.

For 3. There are a variety of methods being looked at some of which are non-electrical. The most well known of course is pumping water into a higher reservoir for release when power is needed to produce hydroelectricity. Various others involve storing gas under pressure, lifting weights and any other way that you can think of storing energy that can be released.

There may end up being a number of solutions to the third problem and variations on a theme for the other two, but they are more likely to be some sort of battery that can hold charge for very long periods.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28098
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

The tech is moving fast, not as fast as AI, but still hard to keep up with.
So Sodium batteries are probably a game changer on the storage front.

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6533
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

The situation I was just describing, with an EV that could power our house for 12+ hours, and be recharged by our solar if an outage lasted longer than that, covers scenario 2.

There will be many states for #3, one that hold power quite well (apparently) are iron flow batteries. But there are efforts for more pumped hydro and the fun thoughts around heavy weights going up and down old abandoned mine shafts.
Increased grid connectivity, reduces the need for #3

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

wealth is not how much you have but how little you need

that could be applied to energy use as well as the original context

my off grid electric is a few battery banks, some rechargeable "domestic shape" batteries and a folding pv panel, wires and control stuff etc

plenty for coms, light, satnav, low power pootering, camera, odd bits of useful kit and anything that will run on low voltage, preferably around 6v for max efficiency

there are other bits in the leccy bag that broaden the options for off grid and/or improvised usage of leccy

if you need a household or business size back up for stuff with a bigger energy need a car that can double as a battery bank and charge from the premises pv or other supply seems a good idea

a scrapheap challenge option is probably already becoming viable

if a car battery is aged to say 75% original capacity, it is not much use in a car, i would be more than capable as storage for domestic leccy

it might be best to put an old one in a tin shed rather than under the stairs

i know it is old tech and has assorted issues, but wet battery rigs have some good points for static use and robustness
sealed, gel, leisure batteries are ok so long as there is no inversion or transformation needed to feed the load the leccy it eats

match the leccy to the load is the tricky bit when supply, storage and loads are all different voltages and types of electron dance

back to my first bit, low power essentials, everything eats the same sort of food that the kit can easily make and store plenty of

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 23 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Unfortunately we should be a lot further along than we are, there are multiple solutions to every challenge but the fossil fuel industry is a very effective lobbying group.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Reviews and what is on? not sure how to reference it, but i just saw a "how do they do it?" on quest tv

a ten min section on "how do they keep the power on?"

the answer was "surprisingly in the circumstances"

standard stuff like switching and pump storage were mentioned as just about coping when everything was going well

this is the bit that seems most relevant to this BEV thread

in the north eastern usa there are at least half a dozen "grid" systems they could share and or store leccy more efficiently if they all had the same frequency, grid voltages and phase structures
they dont, so they had built a spinning transformer that can do form as well as voltage depending on the speed of rotation for the conversion required
ummm, messy and it will have considerable energy loss even when it can cope with expected variations between supply and load

there was a chap promoting using cars as the local battery to smooth grid supply to load imbalance
he mentioned inversions in both directions, ie turn most of your leccy into low level waste heat during "storage"
and the 3yr old car battery tech was out of date before he started

for stand alone off grid, the battery unit of a vehicle could be used as a decent power store
as a community resource, i recon the tech of supply, storage and required loads is not suitable at the mo

to put it in a domestic way, i have lots of things that use very similar but slightly different voltages, currents and data but i have many incompatible USB sockets wires and plugs
between those and bike and between both of them and grid there are larger differences of leccy type
if , what is effectively one"urban" area has half a dozen different distribution systems joined up leccy will take more than plugging the car to the mains

hopefully nobody needs to electrocute an elephant to rationalize electrical energy tech for the modern age

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

ps the numbers for storage density they were using from a few years ago were laughably minute, so i recon the potential for distributed storage is now looking better but with no joined up thinking distributed production, storage and matching that to load will not be happening

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15539

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Slim, in the UK our National Grid is all joined up, but of course the UK is a lot smaller than even some states in the US. It does make sense to link all grid systems together. It was certainly a game changer in the UK.

There was some stuff about flow batteries in one of the articles. It is possible to have holding tanks for the electrolytes separated by a flow battery and the charge can be held for a very long time. There are also batteries based on vanadium that are already in use for medium term storage. Some good news on that front, but as you say Tahir, this sort of thing should have been developed years ago.

We used to get a magazine when we were first married 50 years ago about self sufficiency in most things including electricity and it was talking then about solar roof tiles, which haven't happened yet I don't think.

As for working within your electrical means, we use mainly solar for things like lights, device charging, toilet water pump etc. in the woods, even if it means chasing the sun round a bit sometimes. For heavy loads like the potato bagger or rotary sieve we use for charcoal making we do have to use a diesel generator, but it is not on for very long, so uses very little diesel.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Solar Roof Tiles are bigger in the US than here:

https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

There were numerous companies with systems in the UK 10-15 years ago but as far as I know none have really taken off. The biggest, easiest win will be if solar film roofing is mandated on industrial/agricultural buildings:

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/solar-energy-north-east-seaham-23206367

There's still far too many huge sheds being built with massive wasted solar potential.

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6533
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I was thinking about more international grid interconnectivity.

The very high voltage belt around the equator probably doesn't make sense, but Gibraltar to Japan might.......

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45377
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 23 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

big would be good if folk can work out how to do the engineering

i was considering smaller(a thousand miles or so) scale and thought that superconductor wires might be viable

Ambient temp might be ambitious with current tech, but chilled could have enough merit and practicality to be possible with known materials and means

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28098
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 23 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

One aspect of home storage is the virtual power plant.
Basically the grid gets access to your house and car batteries.
It can tell them to charge when it has excess capacity and can take when it needs to.
I'm sure as battery prices come down, this will become a major thing.
I'm certainly impatient now for sodium to make a real world appearance.
Sodium has gone from hyperbole to real to er where is it? in the space of a few months.
Albeit a lot of the battery factories being built are meant to be for sodium.

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