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pump storage, low volume high density
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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39994
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:49 am    Post subject: pump storage, low volume high density Reply with quote
    

interesting idea for pump storage

a bit messy to install but once the two big holes and trench are dug, lined and covered there is only minimal stuff overground, and even much of that could go underground is it justified the extra costs, ie pretty places etc

it seems to have some merit as energy storage for surge demand and over supply by renewables in the right locations

from the maps they have only looked at part of the world but i can think of a few further away places that are mostly hills, japan and NZ spring to mind among others

Shane



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3291
Location: Doha. Is hot.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Yep - it's definitely part of the way forward for smoothing out the peaks and troughs from renewables. The idea has been around for a few years now, but these guys use a high-density fluid which means they can scale down the design for the same storage capacity. A facility that does the same thing differently by storing compressed air in a salt cavern was being built in the south a couple of years back - not sure how that got on. Air is, of course, less efficient due to the compressibility, but still a useful facility to have dotted around here and there.

Nick



Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34503
Location: Hereford
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Yeah, I remember hearing of water and air being pumped into old mine shafts/caves/salt caverns to act as batteries. Smart. Maybe we'll get there...

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4411
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Where in the South were these salt caverns Shane?

Heard about the mention of compressed air in salt caverns several years back,would have thought condensation in the compressed air would cause problems with the salt,it seem`s to have gone quiet since.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 44798
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Cheshire salt mines, operational in 2022 apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4411
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
Cheshire salt mines, operational in 2022 apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk


Yes i`m aware of the Winsford salt mines and Boulby up the North East and NI of course,mate of mine does rescue safety training in all 3,
Just wondered if there was one more South i had`nt heard of.

Interesting project in Manchester.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39994
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5999
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on

Mistress Rose



Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 12882

PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I hope their fluid really is as safe as they claim. I have come across too many 'wonder chemical' like CFCs that didn't live up to their promises. CFCs were developed to replace more toxic and corrosive chemicals in things like vapour cleaning and degreasing in the electronics industry where things like carbon tetrachloride were used or to replace things like ammonia in refrigeration. Sadly, they caused other problems. At least we know where we are with water.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39994
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Slim wrote:
Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on


yep

75% is getting a bit tired for a car but a pile of them and some fans should work fine as storage for smoothing

Ty Gwyn



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4411
Location: Lampeter
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply


Listen for the big splash,lol,in South Wales anyway.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39994
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

most places, but pumps must be plausible in some

Shane



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3291
Location: Doha. Is hot.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Car batteries are not a great solution in my opinion. They are used as the basis for most uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs) and they are something of a nightmare. For starters, they fail every five years or so, which means that when you have a large bank of them you are constantly having to change them out. They also give off hydrogen during the charge cycle, which causes obvious issues.

I've been trying to push to get lithium batteries trialled for UPS systems but with no success so far. They take up less than half the space, don't give off hydrogen, and last for many, many years. Forget all the horror stories about them exploding - this is always caused by going for the lowest bidder when it comes to procuring the control systems.

Last edited by Shane on Thu Feb 11, 21 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Slim



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 5999
Location: New England (In the US of A)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen.
There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 39994
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 21 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

lead acid stuff is carp(i have used it small scale but tis carp for that as well), lion ex ecocar when it gets to say 75% charge capacity would be an ace way to store energy, extend useful worklife before recycle and cut costs for having a newish battery in the ecocar

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