air to air heat pumps work

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air to air heat pumps work
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Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4632
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu May 29, 25 4:33 pm Post subject:

Like i mentioned above there are Incentives/Grants in Wales for some people,
It had been a requirement when having a heat pump fitted that insulation had to be fitted at the same time,that seems to have changed in some cases,one neighbour had this system fitted 2yrs back apparently there was already insulation in the cavity brick work,recently another neighbour has had the system fitted without having to do any insulation and there is none there,now i`m offered this Hybrid system keeping the oil,using onne or the other.

I thought the whole idea of these heat pumps was to get everyone on to electricity via mains and solar,not offer Free Systems and still use fossil fuel,oil in my case .

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16507

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 7:26 am Post subject:
If it works all right you should be using a lot less oil, which will be an advantage in reduction of fossil fuel and cost to you. With solar panels, you would also be using less grid electricity so you would have lower bills too. Tahir has a well insulated house and a very low electricity bill using grid electricity if I remember from an earlier post.

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 9243
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 8:50 am Post subject:
MR so does my brother, Waerloga. Solar panels, house battery, heat exchange unit, low bills, charges his EVs ( van and motorbike) only when it won't be pulling from the grid. Also has a small multi fuel in the living room just in case.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44397
Location: yes

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 1:03 pm Post subject:

i considered it when the rat boiler fan failed

the costs of re plumbing, adding a tank somewhere, adding pv(including a new bathroom roof), adding a battery and switch gear etc, daft expensive

on top of that, this is a victorian, brick built, terrace and adding any more insulation would be a world of pain re damp and ventilation etc

a modern gas boiler was a factor of ten cheaper, and if needs be we do have functional chimneys and hearths

needs must etc

i would very much have preferred a good heat pump system but that would probably be ground or water source rather than air and we do not have the space for that

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4632
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 1:04 pm Post subject:

I think you have missed my point,
Initionally the idea was to get people off fossil fuels by installing heat pumps and solar panels,then the realisation the system was`nt working without proper insulation,so it was mandatory to insulate to get these Free installations which made sense.

It has been reported that the uptake has been a lot lower than what the Government expect each year,so now the rules are being changed,offering more solar array if one does`nt insulate and this Hybrid system where one still keeps the fossil heating system,

That`s nothing short of whitewashing to boost heat pump sales,the initial idea has gone off the rails.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4632
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 1:04 pm Post subject:

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9967
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 4:13 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

..... If you can't make it work then that's a you problem at this point

I imagine properties are quite different comparing USA to UK - What is the housing stock like there? how are they constructed? I believe they are going in new housing here, certainly I think new houses should be built with the requirements for ASHP, but the problem is converting older houses - and we have lots. Also we tend to have housing with little or no outside space, and everyone is closer together.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44397
Location: yes

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 4:28 pm Post subject:

re usa vs uk properties, both are very varied , the variations are from age , design, price band, etc

outside cities the us ones tend to have more space

re low energy input in the uk, i worked next to and on a scandahaus in the 1980's

in winter a few twigs took it from cool and unoccupied for 5 days to warm in 20 mins, triple insulated, heat exchange chimney, ducted warm air heating for background etc

plenty of space for PV for that one, and it is in a hundred acre wood

i have also known uk houses that are only cosy if you burn a 1/2cwt of coal a week

they were built for that

in the us outside of cities there is a lot more scope for carbon reduced energy than in cities or in most uk rural properties

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6709
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri May 30, 25 9:38 pm Post subject:

The UK housing stock clearly needs better/more/any insulation anyway, it's kind of a separate issue. Improving insulation reduces energy use and therefore climate impact of whatever system, and is typically a better return on investment than most other spending.

My own home is common for 25 year old house. Stick built, 2x6 walls, with only fiberglass. I've improved the attic insulation here, probably a foot and a half of rock wool batts.
Nicer homes were built much better than this.
My father's house is WWI era. Practically no insulation (and some unique characteristics that make adding insulation very impractical). If he switched to a hybrid boiler he would be burning less oil, and producing fewer climate impacting emissions. Why not incentivize that switch when his boiler is aging out?

I don't see why any of this is a bad idea to reduce climate impacting emissions?

Get the folks to jump for solar and insulation and a heat pump if you can. Get the test to jump for insulation if you can. Get the remainder to reduce their fossil fuel consumption with a hybrid system if you can. None of that is mutually exclusive or "all or nothing" beyond the specifics of any one specific incentive

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16507

Posted: Sat May 31, 25 6:53 am Post subject:

I would agree with that Slim, and I think that is the answer Ty Gwyn. If you can't get people to go the whole hog, which is difficult, get them to reduce where they can. Insulating parts of our house would be very disruptive, but putting in solar panels a lot less so. I should add our house started life as 2 railway carriages about the time Slim's fathers house was built, and has carried on from there. We still have the original chimneys, but the rest is 'interesting'. SIL always seems to end up in the bathroom rather than at the front door.

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 9243
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Sat May 31, 25 6:48 pm Post subject:
The problem with all the schemes that turn up is that every time they seem to be "one size fits all" and each latest idea is the best thing out...ignoring the fact that houses and people are all different.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16507

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 25 7:44 am Post subject:
That is true Gz, and not just for this sort of thing.

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 9243
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 25 7:50 am Post subject:
Playing politics instead of getting the job done

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 44397
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 25 9:58 am Post subject:

imho heat pumps are ace if you have ground or water to source from

ground water is extra good if the water moves

specific heat capacity of water vs air, no contest

take a degree C out of a cu M of each and the energy harvest is several factors of ten different

similar issues to wind turbine vs shetland array water turbine, umm on that one, i rather like the shetland array, scaled up it would be a reliable, predictable energy harvest at a reasonable cost per MW

wind is cute and tested at scale,it sort of works
but air is three noughts short of water for kinetic energy for volume and velocity
ie a hurricane might knock you over, a small river or tidal flow at knee ht often does

iirc air is three noughts short of water for latent heat

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9967
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 25 11:57 am Post subject:

gz wrote:

The problem with all the schemes that turn up is that every time they seem to be "one size fits all" and each latest idea is the best thing out...ignoring the fact that houses and people are all different.

very true

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