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Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9470
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:
So there is a case that the initial EVs that are now appearing as second hand cars are worst examples of EVs? Because this will make me hold my on turning to EV for even longer.


Why do you want an EV? Unless you have a smart meter and a fancy tariff they will not be charged only with renewable energy, arguably mostly with fossil fuel, so they are not greener than a petrol car.

They have their benefits of course but curious why you want one. Hopefully I'll go back to only driving a couple of thousand miles a year and range will no longer be important but then I'd never recoup the extra cost of the EV battery. One would make sense only if I get solar panels so I'm waiting for some models that allow energy to flow in and out of ten battery.


I don't particularly - but I guess this will be the future, what will replace ICE, and so I am trying to gather information so can make the right move when I need to replace my ICE car.

My current plan is to carry on with the car I already own. I like to be informed though.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43434
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

needs must etc

the no or multilegged palaeontologists in 100 million years might study rather than thank you

i am toying with air source heat pump if the "scheme" can be tapped, a few £k of mine might not pay back in my lifetime, but it is less toxic or planet changing than a heritage gas boiler( a dibnah delux of domestic machines)

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

There are already plenty of cars that can provide power back to your house (or business):

https://electrek.co/2022/12/26/wine-owner-uses-nissan-leaf-with-v2g-and-solar-to-save-6k/

Tesla reduced prices by about £8000 last week, EV prices will inevitably head lower. There are multitudes of new battery chemistries in various stages of development. Within a couple of years at least some of them will be on the market.

The more people buy EVs the quicker the necessary infrastructure upgrades (including charging facilities) will happen.

Quite a chunk of our power is now renewable:

"Gas provided 41.9% of electricity generation by Major Power Producers, with renewables at 37.8%, nuclear at 17.0% and coal at 2.4%"

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/energy-trends-and-prices-statistical-release-27-january-2022

There is a huge amount of new wind and solar coming online in the UK in the next couple of years as well as storage facilities.

It's not happening fast enough, but it's definitely happening

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43434
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 23 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

chas used a spare billion from the windmill franchise as good works propaganda

the spare billion bit does indicate that renewables are good for business

car and pv makes lots of sense in many scenarios

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 27736
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

EVs are improving all the time at a rate that at this exact point in time is accelerating rather than showing signs of peaking.
So should you buy second hand?
I'd say it's simply a matter of math, for most people it will be vastly cheaper to run and own than ICE.
Teslas have batteries that look like lasting a very long time and are posh cars.
All EVs have a lower carbon footprint than ICE cars, well all sensible ones anyway.
Second hand EV values have been holding up insanely well, but are now in a dive as competition, supply and what they can do picks up.
So I guess it comes down to if you do 20,000 miles a year and can charge at home, buy a second hand EV, much lower mileage wait a bit. Or maybe you just feel the need for a great car?

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 43434
Location: yes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

not just about ev but it is featured in effective climate catastrophe mitigation

cheaper than ice is a very powerful forcing, integrated transport and power storage makes sense and as it makes profit it needs little more than ignoring fossil lies and a few financial gains to consumers to make it happen even faster than it is doing

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
There are already plenty of cars that can provide power back to your house (or business):

https://electrek.co/2022/12/26/wine-owner-uses-nissan-leaf-with-v2g-and-solar-to-save-6k/


That's not in the uk, currently the technology is only on trial and cars are not readily available AFAIK. Looking at the trial it looks like they are just sending power back to the grid and I'd need a smart meter which I can't have (proof the grid isn't up to the job already). I would be looking to power the house, at least as a backup, and it seems we are some way off from that.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:

I'd say it's simply a matter of math, for most people it will be vastly cheaper to run and own than ICE.


Got any math to back that up? If you're having to use the rapid chargers they can be more expensive than petrol, I gather that's one reason prices are falling as demand has dropped due to people realising the running costs aren't great.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd be looking at only 2-3 thousand miles a hear, I'd imagine many others such as Nicky wouldn't be doing anything like 20,000 miles a year either.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
tahir wrote:
There are already plenty of cars that can provide power back to your house (or business):

https://electrek.co/2022/12/26/wine-owner-uses-nissan-leaf-with-v2g-and-solar-to-save-6k/


That's not in the uk, currently the technology is only on trial and cars are not readily available AFAIK. Looking at the trial it looks like they are just sending power back to the grid and I'd need a smart meter which I can't have (proof the grid isn't up to the job already). I would be looking to power the house, at least as a backup, and it seems we are some way off from that.


The world is an imperfect place, societies and governments are imperfect too. There are plenty of people working on making this a real sustainable system, I believe we'll get there because most people will see the benefits.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
If you're having to use the rapid chargers they can be more expensive than petrol, I gather that's one reason prices are falling as demand has dropped due to people realising the running costs aren't great.


The statistics are showing consistent increases in EV sales as a %age of total sales:

https://heycar.co.uk/blog/electric-cars-statistics-and-projections

The reason prices have been dropped by Tesla is that they have finally caught up with demand and they have plenty of room to drop prices (highest margin in the car business)

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Small interventions on electric cars and plant-based meat could unlock rapid emissions cuts, say experts:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/20/super-tipping-points-climate-electric-cars-meat-emissions

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
The world is an imperfect place, societies and governments are imperfect too. There are plenty of people working on making this a real sustainable system, I believe we'll get there because most people will see the benefits.


I'm not disputing that but I'm not interested in crystal ball gazing but interested in what's about now or in a year or two, real costs and to some extent real impact on the planet.

At the moment, and by the looks of it for a couple more years, a petrol car is cheaper to buy and run and is 'greener' as an EV will be powered by natural gas.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
The reason prices have been dropped by Tesla is that they have finally caught up with demand and they have plenty of room to drop prices (highest margin in the car business)


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jan/13/tesla-prices-us-europe-slowing-demand-elon-musk

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/ev-demand-falling-cost-living-energy-prices-increase-13-12-2022

Plenty more stories and I can't claim to have much clue what it all means generally, but I can work out an EV would not be cheap for me.

Last edited by Treacodactyl on Fri Jan 20, 23 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Treacodactyl wrote:
an EV would not be cheap for me.


That's a whole different problem, and as more EVs come to market that will be addressed

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45038
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 23 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Tahir wrote:
That's already very far from the truth, you can guarantee that at least 40% of the energy used in running an EV will be from renewables. That's not something you can say about diesel or petrol.

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