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Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9908
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 25 12:54 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

People that are more worried about the idea of EVs than what impact any proposed ban will have on them

that's not people like me then.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16165

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 25 8:26 am Post subject:

I agree Nicky, We may use our car more than you do, but we tend to use it only 2-3 days a week, sometimes less. I go shopping/delivering one day and perhaps do about 30 miles total. If we go out at the weekend, it may be another 15 miles total or 100 miles. This month we have done rather a lot as we had two coppice group meetings the other side of the county, but then last week we just did about 45-50 miles total. Not sure how an EV would cope with that, because I haven't looked it up, but we compromised and got a hybrid. Then again there are two types; plug in and ordinary. As we weren't ready to go for the electricity plug in point, we went for the ordinary. It suits us, but wouldn't suit everyone.

Another point to be aware of is that the 10% alcohol petrol shouldn't be left standing too long as it absorbs moisture. If you don't use your car much I would suggest not filling it completely so you use the petrol within a month or two.

Yes, Tahir I agree we have to get away from ICE cars, but can understand why some people who have very low milage and not much money are rather worried about making a very large investment. We are fortunate we were able to change our car and go towards electric, if not the whole hog, but a matter of a new car is a very big chunk of savings or having to get a finance deal for most people.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9908
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 25 10:02 am Post subject:
I have been reading about the rapid decline in Tesla car sales - not surprising. Seems the people most likely to opt for EVs are also most likely not to share Elon's political views. Now Trump is openly endorsing Tesla, 'buying' one himself... will the Maga crowd - previously the group the least likely to buy an EV suddenly jump on board?

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28254
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 25 12:51 pm Post subject:

As an anecdote, pn long trips I try and figure if I'd waste more time filling up my tank than if I could charge an EV with 250 miles of range at home.
The EV has always won.
Monday and Tuesday though I was moving Amipest to her new home 116 miles away by motorway which has to be kind of a "sour spot" for an EV as there is no charging at the destination.
but 4 x 116 is also a challenge for my car and since I didn't want to pay through the nose at motorway services the final journey was a little slow and the car is in dire need of the usual 25 minute round trip to CostCo, whereas of course an EV would be back to full range.
So I'd say this one was pretty much a draw and of course at some point a fair EV range to consider normal will creep upwards.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6647
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 25 2:13 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

Yes, Tahir I agree we have to get away from ICE cars, but can understand why some people who have very low milage and not much money are rather worried about making a very large investment. We are fortunate we were able to change our car and go towards electric, if not the whole hog, but a matter of a new car is a very big chunk of savings or having to get a finance deal for most people.

I think the crux here is that we're talking about new cars. Someone that is struggling to afford a new car is struggling to afford a new car, full stop. That has nothing to do with the type of propulsion anymore. New and used EVs can be had for the same prices as ICEs. EVs are typically less expensive to maintain and to fuel (YMMV).

Yes, it's always less energy use to not buy a vehicle. It's less energy use to not do or buy any number of things. A person needing to buy a new or used vehicle will frequently be better off in the long run going for an EV, even if they pay more upfront for it. That ROI difference will vary dramatically from driver to driver.

Nicky doesn't feel ready to buy EV. Fine. That doesn't negate Tahir's point that ICE need to be phased out as soon as possible. (And the sooner that manufacturers focus only on EV the sooner they will become even more the most economical option for energy and budget)

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 9001
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 25 3:44 pm Post subject:

Well said Slim.
I'm with Nicky on this.
Plus everything that is coming out is either definitely a car, or an SUV ( apart from the lorries and diggers etc)

I drive a Berlingo Multi space. That is the vehicle I need...not a van ...even vans of the same size are more costly to insure..

There is the eRifter, but even secondhand that is far out of the range of my pocket ...and the reports on the build of the eBerlingo are not good.

So I hang on to what I have...21 years old this year and still going strong.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16165

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 8:29 am Post subject:

Yes, very well put Slim. It is very hard to get the sort of car you want these days. We want an UV, not an SUV, but we have had to compromise. The SUV isn't anything like as good for our work as a UV. We had a lot of trouble getting an estate car, but it is what we need, and the new one isn't as good as the old one, but isn't too bad as far as carrying is concerned. In both cases we needed to change as the old ones were getting very expensive to maintain, but as you said, if you can't afford a new car, you can't afford one.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9908
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 9:54 am Post subject:

I think we have to factor in that people who are buying new or nearly new EVs are usually selling their ICE cars to partly finance it. Someone has to want to use those ICE cars for this progression.

I think also that one size does not fit all. So high mileage users would win if they switched to EV - assuming they have the ability to charge at home., even more so if they have solar panels. But what about lower mileage users?

The average EV owner is high income, multiple car household, usually with an ICE car as backup, who owns their own home - this isn't the average person in the UK.
If we want to make progress, work has to be done to make it more workable for the other car drivers.

I think a phased ban could make sense - perhaps targeting geographical areas that have infrastructure, or maybe homeowners with parking, or perhaps a category/size of car. i don't know, but as I said one size doesn't fit all.

For the record, I would like to get an EV, but my motivation is environmental (and if I am honest, I hate filling up with petrol, charging at home seems easier so that would be a side bonus) and I cannot afford to make a mistake financially or environmentally. And, environmentally, as a low user I feel it probably makes more sense to continue to run my car until it dies. I'm using the time to ask questions and attempt to become informed, and also question if I should spend my limited funds in other areas.

(edited for typos)

Last edited by Nicky cigreen on Fri Mar 14, 25 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46430
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 12:30 pm Post subject:

a bit of a gulp but, run the old ice one a little bit and mend it by any means economically necessary until that is unviable is probably "greener" than any sort of new one for a low mileage user

brutalist scrapheap and spanners gave me several economically viable motors

only one in three had a catastrophic in use failure, all out performed their brand new factory gate specs

can you live with a 3 buckets of shrap engine failure on the A38 at considerable more than the design speed

maybe not, but keep it going is not like keep it going and rat rod it

most old old motors were ok with scrapheap challenge and decent if unorthodox tweaks
im not sure about stuff with pooters etc controlling the engine etc but some old things were fairly easy to keep running with little more than a butterknife and a fag packet

old stuff can be ace, and very silly

engine swaps were plausible with some things(porsche in a beetle was one a mate liked doing) transit and a V6 essex block worked well and reduced fuel use by half in another chum's work motor but any old but solid block in a nice frame can give better and a lot longer than "factory gate specs"

if i was going to run an ice motor for ever, pre pooter engine management would be a good start

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46430
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 12:33 pm Post subject:
ps for greenery ,mend to run lean and efficient might beat have a new clean one made in a few years the SH but still viable EV supply should fill the market that rats and "survivors" did

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15464
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 12:43 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

a bit of a gulp but, run the old ice one a little bit and mend it by any means economically necessary until that is unviable is probably "greener" than any sort of new one for a low mileage user

They say they can make propane from biomass feedstock, which would mean that it is sustainable, and carbon neutral (or better).
It's a shoe in replacement for petrol and burns significantly cleaner.

I don't understand why they aren't leaping on it as a solution to a low carbon economy.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46430
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 1:13 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I don't understand why they aren't leaping on it as a solution to a low carbon economy.

the fossil lobby

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15464
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 3:00 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

Quote:

I don't understand why they aren't leaping on it as a solution to a low carbon economy.

the fossil lobby

Yes, but at the moment most of the propane is fossil fuel, and the fossil fuel people are best placed to make and distribute the sustainable stuff.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46430
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 25 4:24 pm Post subject:
nope, history suggests they are the problem.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16165

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 25 8:53 am Post subject:

Hairyloon, methane and propane can be made by biodegrading, but most of that is used where it is made; often to power farms and such like. I don't think that using 'rubbish' would produce enough for a reliable alternative to power vehicles or much else, even if all rubbish of all sorts was used. Unfortunately we are already using crops to power digestiors in some cases, which isn't a good use of the crop, unless the edible part is removed first.

Producing electricity by sustainable means, which could include digestors, is I think, the best way forward, particularly if home solar or wind can be used to charge cars, and home batteries for other uses. There are losses in any grid; gas or electricity, but they are a good way of circulating the power to where it is needed.

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